Design Patents & Amazon – A Match Made in Heaven

Joe Valley 22:31

it’s an interesting approach Rich, because when you’re a patent attorney, but this idea, this concept that you presented up on stage is really Hey, look, these are expired. Go ahead. And just yeah, you know, it’s a product idea. So it’s a really interesting way to go about creating or developing a product for so I wanted to go backwards on minute here. But for people that are listening, I think it’s important. I did want to talk about, just mention it here briefly, but we’ll talk about it in more detail in a minute. And that’s every Friday at noon, you have a live webinar, you call office hours, we do live q&a, regarding patents. Okay, so it’s office hours, it’s a live webinar, and how do they find it how they search that online,

Rich Goldstein 23:13

I’m probably the the best way it would be to go to the Facebook group. So just the Goldstein Patent Law Facebook group, and there’s a bunch of you’ll see a post from other office hours and in there, there’s, they’ll, you’ll find the link that actually lets you kind of opt into the system so that we send you reminders about it each week. Good. So that’s probably the best way or, of course, if you are in the Facebook group, on Fridays at 12pm eastern time, then you’d see it happening right then and there because I also posted in the Facebook group, but the thing you want to do is just kind of work your way through there to get into on the list so that you’re in the zoom webinar, and that’s where you can ask questions.

Joe Valley 23:59

Beautiful. Okay, so for those that are interested in learning more directly from Rich, it’s office hours on Friday, go to goldsteinpatenlaw.com and weave your way into the group. Yeah.

Rich Goldstein 24:10

And I’ll send you a link. So if you happen to have show notes that include links I’ll get rolling definitely included.

Joe Valley 24:18

Alright, so I want to I want to go back to the design patent and you know, being able to take it down off of Amazon. Can you do the same with if I here’s here’s a story that was told to me and I think I was into my 33rd ounce of beer so I may get it wrong.

Rich Goldstein 24:38

It was a that’s one leader I think it was

Joe Valley 24:41

I don’t do those conversions. I it was a it was a mini mastermind group from e commerce Hill. And one of the founders that was at that event has a design patent on a very interesting product. And he said he gets knocked off a lot because it’s a very low cost item. He gets knocked off all the Time. And his approach is to just let it happen. Let them go ahead and you know, grow their revenues and get some money in the bank. And then he swoops in, takes them down off of Amazon, he, he talked about Alibaba as well, but he’s actually saying that he can take the money out of their bank account as well. Hmm. Can you address that? Does that it was I did I did I have three beers instead of two. And I’m getting the story completely wrong.

Unknown Speaker 25:28

Probably.

Rich Goldstein 25:29

Yeah, I don’t I don’t know how you would directly take money out of that bank account? Because of course, I don’t think any allegation of infringement, someone has the right to to. Yeah, you know, to dispute that, right. So it would be kind of crazy if someone could come into your bank account and just take the money. But, you know, ultimately, if someone is infringing, you, you know, and you prove it, you would prevail, and you’re entitled to damages.

Joe Valley 25:55

Yeah, he said that he actually makes more money through damages than he does from actually selling product.

Rich Goldstein 26:04

Oh, and there’s, and there’s another, there’s another angle to that, too, is if you let someone else come along, and kind of develop some significant sales, and you have the ability to stop them, and they don’t want to stop, then you work out a licensing arrangement. And so yeah, let them do the work, let them deal with the inventory and everything else and, and pay you for each product that’s being made. That’s not a not a bad way to make a living.

Joe Valley 26:28

You have seen that as well. Last year, 2019, just before Father’s Day, I had a listing that maybe maybe 30 days before Father’s Day went live. And it had just gotten all of its utility patents issued. And I think a design patent as well. And it was a very Father’s Day oriented gift. So we closed about a week before Father’s Day, and the new owner of the business just took action. And every competitor, like you said was poof, gone off of Amazon, primarily, I think because of the design patterns, and his revenue just exploded. And that listing will probably become available in the next 12 months, because he’s just done a terrific job with it. And it’s it’s it’s the ability to take down competitors. And the design patent aspect of it, he’s got utility as well, which really makes a big, big difference. Value wise, you know, anytime I see a business, it’s listed with a design patent or a utility patent, it’s going to it’s going to get a bump in value by you know, if it’s if it would normally be three times it might pop up to three and a half, if it’s three and a half, it might pop up to four, that’s a multiple of discretionary just because of the defensibility aspect

Rich Goldstein 27:40

of it. And that could be significant difference that can be, you know, six or seven figures right there.

Joe Valley 27:46

Oh, easily where if you’re doing $200,000 in or half a million in earnings. And we’re talking about a point five bump that’s that’s a quarter of a million dollars added to stay?

Rich Goldstein 27:57

Yeah, exactly. And where you’ve invested maybe, you know, anywhere from a few thousand to maybe at the most $20,000 in IP protection. And it could that could be your biggest ROI right there. Yeah. Oh, but it’s got to be for that. But it’s got to be the right IP. It’s got to be for the right. product and the good patent for sure.

Joe Valley 28:18

All right. So let’s talk about the right one, just give me the odds, one out of 10 that you take on as a client succeeds, you get that design of utility, two out of 10, seven out of 10. What are the odds that you take

Rich Goldstein 28:30

it very true? I’m, it’s first of all, it’s a matter of how you define success. And it’s also it varies tremendously on what the person does with it, right? I mean, so you have people that are dreaming, where they’re like, I just want to patent this idea, and maybe hope someone will license it from me. You know, that’s more like one out of 50. You know, and then you have people that are actually determined to launch a product, they might not have launched a product before, but they’re determined that it’s not just going to be an exercise and getting a patent. They’re putting this out there. Yeah. And then it’s and then it’s much better odds, like people that are really passionate and determined about taking it forward. I’m actually

Joe Valley 29:11

licensing the odds of getting the patent. You did all about getting the patent. Yeah, yeah. So like, people ask me if like, if I take on a client, you know, what are the odds of selling the business? And I give them, you know, the stats, do you have any ballpark numbers?

Rich Goldstein 29:27

Oh, yeah, it’s probably like 70%.

Joe Valley 29:30

Okay. Because you’ve been doing this for decades, right? And you can look at

Unknown Speaker 29:35

26 years 26.

Joe Valley 29:36

So you can look at something and have a pretty good idea. You’ll do your own research, I assume before you take on a client and have a pretty good idea of whether you’re going to be able to get that. Yeah,

Rich Goldstein 29:46

exactly. I mean, the first step in our process is a patent evaluation where I get to know what they have in mind doing. We do research to see what else is out there that’s similar and that I recommend options. So usually in that phase we get a sense of what the risks are. And and so if the client wants to move forward with it, they they do so knowing kind of what their chances are and what they headed for. Is there a cost for the patent valuation?

Joe Valley 30:13

1800 dollars? I said to that, okay. Okay. Does that get applied to the designer utility patent? Or there’s an additional?

Rich Goldstein 30:21

No, it’s all a card. It’s all a card. I mean, gotcha. That’s pretty much how I do things. I like flat fees, but all a card. So we only pay for the things that you encounter, not for things that you might encounter, you know, down during the process. So at each step, we take stock and say, this is where we’re at. Do we want to take this next step? And this is what it would cost? If we do.

Joe Valley 30:43

Yeah. Talk to us about trademarks. Right? Everybody seems to have one, it’s kind of low hanging fruit. And I think it’s a must have, in most cases, you handle those as well.

Rich Goldstein 30:53

Yeah, yes, absolutely. And exactly, patents are not always advisable. Because sometimes, the patent that you’re going to get isn’t going to be even worth it for you. But trademarks are basically a no brainer. Anytime you have a brand out there, you’re going to want to protect it with the trademark. And, you know, the typical beginning to end cost for getting a trademark and maybe $2,000. And so it’s worth it. Anytime you have a brand out there, whether it’s on Amazon or elsewhere, just get your trademark protected. I think the biggest thing that stops people from protecting their trademarks is that they, they hear stories about people that had an issue with another company’s trademark, and they end up spending $100,000 resolving that dispute, etc. And so they say, Well, you know what that trademark thing, let’s put that off as long as we possibly can. And that, but the truth is, is if you get your trademark registered, that’s how you avoid that hundred thousand dollar problem. So spend a couple thousand, get it registered, get it protected, that that can pay off tremendously in avoiding all the problems down the road. Is there a use issue or time period with trademarks as well? So if I’ve created this name, and I am using it, do I have up to a year as well before I lose the ability to trademark it or not? Yeah, actually, it works quite differently from patents. So it’s almost opposite in that you. In order to get the trademark fully registered to complete the process, you need to be using it. And if you are using it, then you acquire rights. So let’s say you’ve been using it for 10 years, and now you apply for the trademark. You know, you’ve been acquiring rights common with a common law rights during that time. It’s just more difficult to prove. And if there’s a dispute more difficult to resolve it if you haven’t gotten a registered trademark. But you’ve you’ve acquired rights during that time. So if 10 years have gone by, you can still apply for a trademark. The problem is if you’ve been selling it all that selling the product or that time and someone beats you to the trademark office by even a day, then now, you know you have an uphill battle to get the trademark. I mean, you might be able to prevail in the end because of your common law rights because you’ve been using it. But it’s much more difficult thing to do than if you simply applied before that other person who’s knocking the trademark office before you

Joe Valley 33:31

know, right. I think folks should reach out to you for the trademark as well. Can you talk for a minute about this about your podcast? I love the fact that you’re doing one Innovations and Breakthroughs. How long? Have you been doing it? Who’s your typical guests? What are you doing on the show?

Rich Goldstein 33:45

Okay, yeah, I love doing the podcast as well. I mean, it’s just a great way to connect with people, and especially people that are innovating people that I’ve had a path toward getting their products out there onto the market. So it’s basically about people who’ve done it, people, people who’ve attempted it, and sometimes they’ve done it, sometimes they’ve succeeded, sometimes they’ve failed, but their story, that path that they took of taking something that was just a notion in their head and making it into a reality that’s a story worth telling. And it’s fun to talk with those people and I’ve interviewed a lot of people in e commerce I mean a lot of the people that you and I both know and also people that are outside of those circles but who have had great success and people in direct response that people like Rick says sorry, you know people that have you know, launch products out there you know in the conventional retail channels like and licensed them like Bob Serling, I mean people like that I’ve had on my on my show and I and it just keeps getting better. I just keep getting more and more interesting people on

Joe Valley 34:59

well Innovations and Breakthroughs I want people to listen in on that. Again, if you have a product out there, if you’re doing, you know, ecommerce, FBA, whatever it is that you’re doing, I think, design utility patent, the more you get it protected, the more defensibility it’s going to have, the more value your business is going to have in terms of driving more revenue and adding more profit, but also in the eventual exit of your business. And someday you will exit whether it’s well how, whether it’s a decision that’s made for you, or that you hopefully make yourself and also definitely go to goldsteinpatentlaw.com, and check out the office hours. I think that’s brilliant, right? You’re there helping people answering questions, doing what you can to sort of take the mystery out of that. I think it’s fantastic.

Rich Goldstein 35:44

Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. I mean, I love working with people. I love helping people. And it’s it’s just like a, like a little notch of time that I set aside to do that each week. And it’s it’s been it’s been growing and growing. So I’ve been enjoying it. Well, good for you Good for the folks to get to listen in as well. Well, listen, man, I hope I get to see you soon. Hopefully, this whole COVID thing will be over and we get to go to events and shake hands and have a drink and all that good stuff and meet our friends again. It’ll be a while I

Joe Valley 36:11

I assume, but hopefully not too long from now. So thanks for being a guest man. I really appreciate it.

Unknown Speaker 36:16

My pleasure do

Outro 36:23

today’s podcast was produced by Rise25 and the Quiet Light Content Team. If you have a suggestion for a future podcast subject or guests, email us at podcast at quietlight.com. Be sure to follow us on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram, and subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.