Resources for Buying and Selling Online Businesses

Unleashing Subscription Revenue With QPilot


Matthew HolmanMatthew Holman is the Head of Growth and Co-founder of QPilot, which offers merchants a way to manage subscriptions and deliver the best products to consumers. He is an expert in the subscription space and the Founder of “Subscription Prescription,” a newsletter full of insights to help subscriptions thrive. Matthew is the Operations Co-chair of SUBTA (Subscription Trade Association) and a community advisory board member at RiseKit.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

  • [02:28] How you can make subscriptions work effectively for your brand
  • [06:31] Matthew Holman explains the workflow and logistical side of a subscription service
  • [11:04] What retention methods and notifications help brands be more proactive?
  • [15:58] Matthew talks about communicating with your customers to increase conversion rate
  • [20:04] How can you track the lifetime value of a consumer?
  • [24:43] Matthew shares why understanding your client can increase profitability

In this episode…

How can you deliver an automated consumer experience? For subscription brands to be successful, they need to look beyond simply acquiring as many new clients as possible. What should you look for?

For Matthew Holman, acquiring new clients is about examining the lifetime value and understanding the outcome your clients desire. It’s not just enough to have loyal consumers — you want them to experience new products, upsells, and offerings. This not only maintains their loyalty but generates more revenue for your brand. Creating a subscription is a journey, and Matthew says the more you engage clients and become part of their journey, the more you can sell.

In this episode of the Quiet Light Podcast, Joe Valley sits down with Matthew Holman, Head of Growth and Co-founder of QPilot, to talk about how to build a larger customer lifetime value. Matthew explains subscription logistics, communication for retention, and understanding your consumer for the long run. Stay tuned!

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Sponsor for this episode

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Episode Transcript

Intro  0:07

Hi, folks, it’s the Quiet Light Podcast where we share relentlessly honest insights, actionable tips, and entrepreneurial stories that will help founders identify and reach their goals.

Joe Valley  0:32

Hey folks, Joe Valley here, welcome to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast. Today we’re going to talk all about subscriptions with Matthew Holman from I once had a subscription business and trying to figure out the lifetime value of a customer trying to shift the shipping frequency from every 30 days to 35 or 40. Because the customers product was piling up, and they get overwhelmed, felt it was a waste of money and move on to cancel. All of these things were so hard a decade ago. And with QPilot, it’s super easy. It can be done on a mobile phone, all automated email, of course, as well or on their website. Matthew is an expert in the subscription space, he’s got a newsletter, he’s got a Slack channel, there’s a lot of stuff on social media. And he gives some great ideas on how to build subscription revenue, how to maintain subscription, subscription revenue, and how to analyze what’s working and what’s not, and how to build up a larger lifetime value of a customer, which is the ultimate goal. And that makes your business more valuable when you eventually exit. And we all want that. And believe it or not, yes, Matthew and I talked about this afterwards, everybody’s going to exit someday. People that say I’m never gonna sell, you’re not gonna live forever. So eventually you’re going to sell you’re gonna hand it to a child, family member, neighbor, whatever it might be, and you want to create a business that’s going to be as transferable as possible. QPilot can help you with that in the subscription category. It’s a great interview with Matthew, here we go, Matthew, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. How are you? I’m doing well. Joe, how are you doing? I’m doing well, man. I’m doing well. For the folks listening. Can you give some background on yourself and a little bit of history there?

Matthew Holman  2:13

Sure. Absolutely. I’m currently the head of growth and co founder at QPilot a subscription company designed to help e-commerce companies with repeat deliveries. I also do a lot of work here in Utah local community related to marketing events, trying to help you know everybody level up their skills. So we do a lot of local events as well as a Slack community for that. And you know, in general, love running and currently training for triathlons. So trying to be active and healthy and not kill myself in the process.

Joe Valley  2:42

How big of a triathlon i I’ve done a couple in the past, but it’s nothing to brag about, because it’s very small run a swim in a small bike ride.

Matthew Holman  2:51

Yeah, I’m doing a half Ironman, so it’s about a mile 55 mile on bike and the half marathon on this running, which is the I’m a runner by by nature. So like, like, that’s my strengths. So this swimming in the biking is,

Joe Valley  3:05

is the hard part. So last time I did it a buddy of mine. So we had to I forget what we did. I think we ran first and then swam and then biked. Or maybe it was different. All I remember is I was out of the water. Actually, I think we we swam first you had to swim down the coast, right? And then back up. So you’re dealing with the tide and the waves. And then on top of it all once you’re done swimming, you run back down the beach. It was in the dunes and things of that nature. And they just remember at one point, I’m running back and he’s finally coming out of the water and almost almost finishing and the poor guy. He’s standing on the beach throwing up. I give him credit though he finished the entire thing. He came in dead last. But he finished the entire thing. He had no quit in him, buddy. He did finish education and a much much easier triathlon then you’re doing for sure. For sure. All right, so head of growth and co founder at, explained to me and us everybody listening, what QPilot is and what you do there?

Matthew Holman  4:10

Sure, absolutely. So I think a lot of people are familiar with the concept of subscriptions. Whether you’re talking Amazon Prime or Netflix, we specialize in physical goods, subscriptions. So say you’re getting pet food delivered to you every month or CBD, maybe you’re getting a protein powder or a cosmetic kit or something like that. So a lot of brands are really great at the acquisition side of things. But you typically need software and some other kind of logical development capabilities to make subscriptions work really effectively. So our whole goal is to make a great customer experience for our customers customers.

Joe Valley  4:47

Back in the day, Matthew, I had a subscription business, a supplement business and 35% of my revenue was recurring. It was a royal pain in the butt because this was back in 2010. There wasn’t really any software other than In an Excel sheet or a Google Sheet, trying to figure out my lifetime value of a customer. And the biggest thing for me, and the biggest challenge that I had back then was that, you know, it was it was a supplement package geared towards digestive health. And inevitably, people would miss a day 234 Or five a month, and that end up winding up with so much, right, because when they got behind the system automatically shipped in 30 days, and then they’d have to call and cancel. And then or manually, our customer service representatives would change the shipping period, delay something and things of that nature. And it was very labor intensive. When the customer just saw, I’m frustrated. I have

Matthew Holman  5:46

to, I have to just go get this at GNC or something.

Joe Valley  5:49

Well, no, mine was better mine. Might you couldn’t get it at GNC. They did try to get me to sell it there. But it was a total ripoff. That’s another story altogether. But how did you? How did how do you solve that problem in today’s world with with software, because back then it was a software as human based?

Matthew Holman  6:07

Well, I think the way I like to kind of try to explain is that most subscription software is built from a billing perspective, in the sense of like, it’s good at taking credit card information, it’s not really good at like dealing with an order needs to change, I’ve got too much. And instead of getting it every four weeks, I need to change it to six weeks, like the credit card part of that’s the easy part that the logistical how that order flows through your typical e-commerce workflow and into your fulfillment center is where things get really, really messy and complicated. And it’s just in the last couple of years that we’ve seen the rise of like apps that are starting to like, you know, innovate in this space and make that easier and stuff and QPilot is built from a logistics standpoint, I actually worked for a shipping logistics technology company before I joined QPilot and subscriptions, which is kind of an interesting background, right? So really, it’s about figuring out back office processes so that if a change happens, what are all the other dominoes that need to either be lined up or that fall after once that change takes place? Right? So if like somebody wants to switch out a product, is that inventory actually available? If they’re going to be at a different address? Can you recalculate shipping for them? Right? And is it something that can be done self service? Or if your customer service team is having to do it? Is it something they can just easily do on a back end without having to like, you know, open up Excel sheets and manage all that other data?

Joe Valley  7:23

And it’s not something that has to be built into my website, necessarily. This is software that can be added on to it? Yes, that’s correct. Can it be done? In the world we live in today, just on my mobile phone, if I want to change the frequency, delay the shipment of this one for 10 days, and then change the frequency to 40 days? And

Matthew Holman  7:44

do it through text through chat bot? You could even do it through slack? You want it to?

Joe Valley  7:50

What about canceling? Do you make it convenient for customers to cancel? Yep, absolutely.

Matthew Holman  7:54

You have to I think in today’s days, I mean, me personally, like I don’t want to be our software isn’t trying to support gym memberships, where it’s like impossible to cancel. It’s really all about customer experience. And so a lot of what we do is we try to help brands figure out how to demonstrate value so that that cancellation is really just, you can’t always make everybody happy. So some people are going to quit, but you never want to lose somebody because they get frustrated because of product or customer experience or anything like that.

Joe Valley  8:21

Yeah, I would think that canceling would be the last option that you want, and that you could serve up a bunch of different alternatives. What would some of those alternatives be to canceling that software can help solve without talking to a human at this point?

Matthew Holman  8:34

Sure. So there’s two things about it, right? Like if when it’s actually happening, you can make there’s certain types of like logical flows you can get into where you’re asking somebody like what’s wrong to see if maybe you can solve the problem. That’s price, maybe you’re giving them an offer, maybe they didn’t see enough utility of it, maybe they need a coach, depending on what type of product you’re offering. There’s also I always say the from a psychology standpoint, you want to ask people to think about how much product they have. So that because the number one reason people canceled subscriptions across the board is they have too much product. That was my situation. I agree. Absolutely. So that’s that’s a very common reason. So you want to make it really easy. If somebody does have that, that you suggest that they move out their next shipment date, right. So like I have $1 Shave Club subscription. When I get too many razors stacked up, I just push out the frequency. It’s really, really simple. From a proactive standpoint, you want to start to understand the reasons why people have too much product. So like in the example of like your your gut health supplement company, maybe if people are skipping because they forget periodically, right? Or maybe when they first get it, it’s hard to make a new habit. So you could start building in some messaging as part of the onboarding process and your first box that emphasizes like, you know, how it takes time to create these habits. Like it’s gonna take time to see the effects of these things. Or if you skip a couple days, it’s okay like, you know, you’re trying to build in some psychology there so that when people do feel like hey, I’ve got too much What do I do? Do they know what to do? Because you’ve been telling them all along, this takes time. If you miss, it’s okay to just to pause or skip that kind of thing. So

Joe Valley  10:07

this is all that built into the software in in most cases or because it sounds a lot like email marketing, you know, with clay vo you’re sending them emails, just reminding them that some of

Matthew Holman  10:19

it is yeah, right. But But, but a lot of it isn’t a lot of it is like, say what you’re putting on your product page. So like, in addition to the work, I do a cube pilot, I’ve got like a weekly newsletter. And so I’m constantly talking to brands and working with brands to help them figure out subscription programs. And a lot of times it’s actually not software as the problem, right? It’s understanding acquisition, what customers are expecting that they’re getting out of the product, what they’re actually getting, what are the results they’re seeing, are you doing a good job of demonstrating that value? And then reinforcing it with email, marketing, text, social, all those things?

Joe Valley  10:54

How comfortable are you finding customers these days to be with text?

Matthew Holman  11:00

It’s, it’s a mix, I think it’s one of those things where you either love it or you hate it. So for brands, you kind of have to, you have to experiment with it. For me, it depends. There’s some brands, they want to text me and I immediately unsubscribe and there’s others that I do want to hear from him. So I keep it you should be doing both texting, text and email and not relying on either one. But there’s a certain type of like, there’s certain industries and brands where, say, if you’re selling to like, really, really busy moms, they’re they’re great getting a text, they want that text, they can make the decision in two seconds, and then they don’t have to think about it again. You know, guys aren’t as much, right? But we don’t want to get a bunch of texts. We’d rather just get an email and go look at it when it’s convenient for us.

Joe Valley  11:43

I don’t even check my email. So I’m a problem child. What about one of the things that a couple of things on subscription programs? One is reminding customers that they’re about to get charged. What are your thoughts on that?

Matthew Holman  11:59

Yeah, so first of all, there’s like, you know, California actually has recently passed, they’ve had subscription laws on the books for a while, but they’ve recently kind of made them a little bit more very particular and stringent. So it’s, you know, you’re legally required to let people know that they have an upcoming order, and it needs to be asked to be easy for them to cancel. And you can’t make too many hoops. People jump through to to cancel, right? So if you’re doing business in California, which most e-commerce companies are, you should be aware of that. The other thing is, I know that there are a lot of brands that don’t like sending notifications, because it helps their retention metrics by not letting people know that that’s happening, right. I personally am not necessarily a fan of that I understand why brands do it. I think that it’s important to be more proactive. I also think that there’s a subtle difference between, say you’re getting a text and it says, you know, if you want to cancel your order, click here, people click the link cancel. And a lot of brands do that. They just say if you want to cancel, click this. It’s no you have an upcoming order. How’s it going? Right? Can you build a very quick interaction in there? Like, how’s the product treating you? Did you skip any? Did you miss any days this month? And if somebody says yes, like, hey, that’s okay. Like you’re starting a new habit? Do you need to pause or skip? I mean, not pause, you don’t want to say skip before pause or just thinking about how much product you have on hand. Don’t

Joe Valley  13:20

delay your next shipment. And this can all be built in and be automated via text. JavaScript. It’s not a human. It’s it’s machine learning. Correct? Wow. Man, how things have changed in a decade? Really, I mean, it’s just incredible. You know, I used to do this stuff manually and, and, you know, we’d have conversations with customers about why they were canceling with learning about it. This was back in you know, 2000 789 Mederos happening back then. challenging times. It’s, it’s amazing how far this has come. That your typical customer at QPilot, it’s somebody obviously with physical products, but is it you know, pet supplements is it you know, spices food, what is it? What’s your typical customer

Matthew Holman  14:04

you’ve named? All of them actually like yeah, for us. We do. We do a lot of work with pets CBD is is rising really, really quickly. So we do a lot of work with them. supplement companies food delivery is kind of one of the more exciting ones as well. We’re seeing a lot more food startups coming through and

Joe Valley  14:21

for lunch startups, like what kind of food startups they come Bucha

Matthew Holman  14:24

me you know, it’s there been like subscription boxes like say your your meat of the Month Club for a long time now, but it’s we’re seeing a lot of like more regional presences. So like fully routed as one up in the Northeast there and like Rhode Island area, and they do fresh juice and kombucha and they’re really strong in their area. They’re not a national brand, but they’re regionally they’re strong and they’ve got a really cool option where you can go either deliver to you or you can pick it up in your local farmers market at like three different locations and those

Joe Valley  14:54

so it’s it’s it’s not food delivery or food from your local grocery store. The It’s been delivered. It’s a specialty food where they’ve got a subscription program they’re trying to grow it. Yep, that’s correct. All right, cool. What are some of the biggest mistakes that people make when they’re trying to set up prescription subscription programs? Yeah, I think

Matthew Holman  15:11

a couple of things. One are making things too complicated right away, thinking you’re gonna build $1, shave club or something like that overnight with like, lots of bells and whistles and all the different like, you know, we mentioned all that different ways you can communicate with somebody via text, right? I wouldn’t worry about building something like that. And the initial go around, you just wanted some basic data collection and a basic offer and start testing your offer. And you actually mentioned something I think, too, that you did back in the day, because didn’t have as much technology options, which I think is a mistake that brands make, and that’s not talking as much to their customers, understanding why they’re canceling maybe what you can learn when you actually talk to somebody. It’s shocking. And, you know, a really good example of one that I use a lot is, so we have a company, one of our customers is iHeart dogs, they sell pet food, and they donate a portion of all their sales to feeding shelter pets. So they’ve got some people that are really loyal to their brand, because they care about their mission. And they were running subscriptions for a while kind of from an MVP basis, they set it up with us, and then just kind of like, let it run. And they were collecting data. And like most brands, they found out the number one reason for churn was people had too much product. Now. Most brands, when they learn that they go, Okay, well, I need to start giving discounts and gifts. And that’s a really common mistake. I heard dogs talk to their customers. And so one thing I tell everybody, the same thing is you need to get into that, why? Why did you have too much product? Well, they found out that their customers had too much product because they didn’t know how much to actually order initially, because dogs come in so many different shapes and sizes. And so they as a company, now they go for for version two, they go back and they go back to the drawing board, they redesign their product page. Now if you go to iHeart dogs, all their products, you can see it it has you select the size of dog you have. And depending on what you select, it selects an amount and a frequency for the subscription for you. So that kind of DEV work is cost costly, but they had a ton of data and talking to customers that made that justify that expense. And what happened, they doubled their conversion literally doubled their conversions on the product page and their retention went up went through the roof as well, because now they addressed the number one reason why people were turning. And you wouldn’t they wouldn’t have been able to do that if they hadn’t actually talk to people to figure out why.

Joe Valley  17:29

Yeah, some of this isn’t rocket science. Yeah, it’s it’s pretty simple stuff. You just mentioned churn, I mentioned lifetime value earlier, I find these things can often be very difficult to calculate, especially, you know, lifetime value of a customer. And it’s critical because you need to know how much money you can spend in order to acquire the customer. while calculating lifetime value and your profit margin. Does the software like this help make that easier? Or is it still just a grind?

Matthew Holman  18:04

It does because it can track like how much money each individual customer spent with you and then aggregate and and create averages for you, it can get a little bit messy with discounts when you start like throwing a lot of discounts in the mix. Not all software’s like great at like it’s tracking based price instead of discounted price. So it can get a little bit messy. But most software can calculate that pretty well for you. What makes it still a little bit hard is depending on how you’re like segmenting people, so like if I run a Facebook campaign, and my landed cost of that customer is $30. But my Google campaigns 20 And my affiliate campaigns like 40, my my software, my subscription software isn’t segmenting based off acquisition channel. So that’s that’s where things start to get a little bit messy if you end up aggregating people, so it’s hard to do that, that part to get really accurate.

Joe Valley  18:55

How important do you find as a marketing expert in the subscription niche? How important is lifetime value of a customer in calculating it properly? I think it’s what do you think? What do you think the most important metric is for people that are trying to grow their subscription programs?

Matthew Holman  19:13

I think that that’s it, that it’s for me, I’m I always try to simplify things as much as possible. So if you can aggregate things, I mean, sometimes you’re forced to aggregate things, like I mentioned, you can’t segment people out based off of acquisition channels. So understanding your typical customer, if I mean, there’s simple ways to do that, where you can start testing like offers on those channels. And then you can see conversions go up. And you can use Google Analytics to start tracking some of that. But what I think it gets really interesting is like within retention is not looking at averages as much as much as you might think. So for example, like the average life of a subscription might be six months, but that’s heavily skewed by people that cancel initially, and it’s heavily skewed by a core group of people that might stick around for like forever, right? So it’s not About average, it’s about looking at like, what’s your retention month over month, over customers you acquired in July and August in September. So that’s, that’s the type of analysis you can make easily with subscription software’s from, like time standpoint of how you’ve acquired customers. So looking at those common drop off points, you can start to understand, like, what, how those cohorts are behaving. And so one simple idea is this is, if I’m going to run a special, I’m going to run a special on my website. And I’m going to track at least the people that signed up during that special. And so I know if that special was effective or not. And I know that that core group, I can look at their lifetime value and know that I acquired them at a different price, right. And so that’s where you can start to make more, I think, really positive changes, because most subscription brands are just trying to acquire more and more subscribers as quickly as possible. And they’re not always connecting the acquisition cost with the lifetime value. So anyway, we talked about the salty,

Joe Valley  20:57

we can get deep, deep into the weeds for sure. does suffer like this track? I probably doesn’t. So simple, simple answer, probably chargebacks, I find that subscription models often mean higher chargebacks, because they’re not communicating with the customer. And they try to cancel the cancel, they just the easiest thing is just to do a chargeback with American Express whatever. How does that play into you know, subscription software like this,

Matthew Holman  21:27

if at all. So most subscription software is not including something that’s tracking that. Like if you’re on Shopify, there’s a really great tool called churn Buster, like it’s a separate app that you would add in that’s tracking that type of thing. And as well as it because it’s also trying to anticipate when credit cards are going to expire. A few other things. So yeah, there’s a lot of technical stuff that goes into the billing aspects. So it’s, it’s something you’re either adding, or you typically have an add on. So you can connect those two things.

Joe Valley  21:54

You mentioned a few minutes ago, the fact that some customers stick around forever, while some you know, are there for 37 days, and you look at the lifetime values and average. Is there a way to? Do you just do just keep taking money from those customers that are incredibly loyal and stick around forever? Or isn’t it? Is there an automated way or a benefit to offering them some sort of loyalty discount or additional product or anything like that, in your experience? What do you just leave well enough alone and keep taking the most money came from? Well,

Matthew Holman  22:27

that’s the thing is that you can’t leave well enough alone. If you want to take the most money you can from them, right? You want to be able to start selling them other other products. So I think if you are starting to identify a core group of customers, that’s, that’s phenomenal. Like get deep with those customers to figure out what attributes what value they’re getting. And how can you find more customers like that, right? automating processes around upsells offers like I think any brand with a diverse SKU, meaning they’ve got more than just one product or offerings should be offering those as gifts, as well as upsells, once you hit like a couple months into subscription, because people are liking and trusting your product. I mean, Dollar Shave Club has tried several times to get me to try their shave their shave butter, or whatever. And they sent me a free bottle the other day, and I’m going to try it, we’ll see if they can get me to switch. But I think you want to add some type of thing. But it kind of comes down to a few things if people just love the product that and they’re just trust the product. And it’s not as much something I would worry too much about other than just making it really easy for them to have that control. Some people like the brand experience, they like that feeling of community or exclusivity. So there’s a lot of other levers you can add to try to add this feeling of premium and value so that more people that are, you know, only a month or two in are looking forward thinking they’ve got some maybe some exciting things down the road.

Joe Valley  23:45

Okay, do e-commerce brands come to you, when they don’t have a subscription program and say, Matthew helped me out, I sell grilling aprons. And, you know, selling these one off items is, is awesome. We’re doing great. But I’d like to have some sort of recurring revenue, and I need an expert to help me Are you that guy? Or is there an association or group or Facebook group or slack channel? Where that you know, somebody that’s selling just grilling aprons can can really get some great ideas?

Matthew Holman  24:15

Yeah, that’s a good question. There is an organization that I’m a big fan of sub to the subscription trade association. And they’ve got an active Slack channel and Facebook group as well as an event that they do every year called sub Summit. For me, I do have those conversations pretty regularly. You know, I’m pretty active on social with my content. So I ended up getting a lot of those types of questions. And so I’m more than willing to, you know, brainstorm some ideas around there. One of the most common things I say when I get those questions is just trying to get people to tell me more about what they understand about their customer. So for example, you know, I had somebody asked me recently about a podcast, he does podcasting services, and he has a package that he sells and he was curious about subscription tips, and I was asking, Well, how many people come in and they only want half of your package? Like, Oh, well, actually, quite a few people just want this. It’s like, well there. I mean, sometimes it’s that simple. Can you offer that profitably? Can that become a stepping stone for you? So the thing I love the most about subscriptions is that they’re often about engagement is understanding what people want. There’s an outcome they’re looking for, can you give them that outcome, and then help them along that journey. And whatever that journey is, whether that’s, you know, better gut health, whether that’s podcasting, whether that’s grilling, if you can start to engage with people, you can start to be part of that journey with them. And that means you can sell them more.

Joe Valley  25:33

So very simple and very complicated at the same time. Exactly. Yeah, for sure. Matthew, how do people reach you? How do they learn more about you connect with you talked about socially talked about a Slack channel and of course, QPilot, and it’s not It’s, which I think is interesting, right?

Matthew Holman  25:52

Yeah, absolutely. That’s why we started we actually did launch a new website, We have all our documentation and fancy stuff on still confused? Okay. We’re working on getting those results. reconciled. Yeah. For me, connect with me on LinkedIn, Matthew Holman, QPilot, I’m on Twitter subscription doc. Those are some great places. I’m always happy to connect

Joe Valley  26:14

your your Twitter handle is subscription doc. Very cool. I like that. All right. That’s a

Matthew Holman  26:20

weekly newsletter. People should check out you can get my LinkedIn. I’ve got the LinkedIn there as well. But

Joe Valley  26:26

the newsletter is from you get access to it from LinkedIn. Yep. And what’s it called?

Matthew Holman  26:31

Subscription prescription?

Joe Valley  26:34

Great titles. Do you come up with these? Now you buy some

Matthew Holman  26:37

of them? So my, my, my my co founder, interestingly enough, my co founder, QPilot, David Bradley is an advertising major, who started doing technical implementations for NetSuite, and he’s a product guy, but he has an advertising background so we have some fun conversations bouncing ideas around.

Joe Valley  26:53

I bet you do. It’s memorable, all of them. Well, this has been great, Matthew, appreciate your time. If there’s anything I can do in the future for you just reach out. Okay. Appreciate that. Thank you, Joe.

Outro  27:04

Today’s podcast was produced by Rise25 And the Quiet Light content team. If you have a suggestion for a future podcast, subject or guest, email us at [email protected] Be sure to follow us on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram, and subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.

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